Parenting FailsParenting StylesPseudoscience

9 things I wish the anti-vaccine parents would admit

Generally, I love a debate. But as I get older, I no longer debate guns or vaccines. Those are two topics that I stay away from, just to save my own sanity. But today, I don’t know, something moved me. I wasn’t going to write about this. Then we had a minor scare with my friend Lindsay’s little boy last week, as we thought that maybe he had gotten the measles despite being vaccinated. It is crazy to me that this disease was all but eradicated 20 years ago, and now it’s back. For the most part I have sworn off of or out of vaccine debates. But I couldn’t resist because a decent friend who seems to be reasonably intelligent appeared to be buying into the fear. And in somewhat of an a-ha! moment I realized what it is about the anti-vaccine movement that I loathe. Aside from the fact that they put the medically fragile and medically complex and the very young at risk…to the point where a family cannot even go to Disneyland for the holidays.

It’s the constant lying. Lord do I hate liars. And that’s what you all are, liars. So here you go, here is your opportunity to have that ‘come to Jesus’ moment and be honest with yourselves. Because when you lie about this, I don’t trust anything else you say. You know these statements are true, and when you try to convince yourselves and others differently, you look ridiculous.

Truth #1

“I’m buying into fear, not facts.” There you go, say it out loud. Stop trying to convince others that you have facts on your side because you do not. You are embarrassing yourself when you state information that simply isn’t true. Admit it, and say it out loud. “Despite the overwhelming evidence that vaccines are safe for most of the population, for whatever reasons, I am still afraid to vaccinate my child.” For 99.9% of you, you do not know anyone who was harmed by a vaccine. You don’t. So stop telling us these stories that you do–it’s not mathematically possible. You’re buying into the fear and speculation that you read on the internet. Own that.

Truth #2

“I am un-apologetically relying on you vaccinating your kids so that my family can rely on herd immunity. Oh, and thanks for that.” Vaccine skepticism is a first world luxury. In other countries, moms walk for miles to vaccine clinics so that they can get their children immunized. Without herd immunity, you would not be able to make this choice and you need to own that. YOU’RE WELCOME. The irony here is that you are trying to recruit more members for Team Anti-Vax, when what you should be doing is convincing more of us to vaccinate. For every team member you get, you have increased the risk for your own child. The fact that you don’t see the irony or hypocrisy of this is amazing. We have every right to be angry with you for putting newborns and people with cancer at increased risk. Which you are doing. You are being selfish. OWN IT. Honestly, the fact that you come to us with this air of superiority and pious, condescending attitudes…all the while taking advantage of the herd immunity that WE ARE PROVIDING for you, this is the most annoying part and why sometimes pro-vaccine people want to smack that smug grin off your face. How dare you judge me for my choices, when it is MY CHOICES that make your choices possible.

Truth #3

“I am not having my freedom of speech rights suppressed. I have a very unpopular opinion because there is no science behind it.” Freedom of speech means that the government cannot cite you for saying something. However, that does not give you protection from criticism. Anyone can post their thoughts and beliefs. No one is denying you that. If you have unpopular beliefs, that does not mean that private individuals have to listen to this schtick without criticizing. Nor do I have to provide the forum or the bandwidth for you to express your opinions. You are unpopular because you are selfish (see Truth #2). There is no conspiracy on the part of doctors or ‘big pharma’ as you like to call it. All data will tell you that treating a disease nets more profits than cures or prevention so if anything, the opposite is true.

Truth #4

“I know that both options have risks, and I am choosing the side that has a higher risk to my child, my family and others.” Not vaccinating is not without risk, it’s just a different risk. All the scientific evidence points towards vaccinations having less of a risk than the disease. You are just banking on nothing happening, despite the increased risks. Stop trying to convince us that we are the ones putting our kids at a higher risk, because it simply is not true. Hey, my dad hates to wear a seat belt, and he knows the risks. But he doesn’t lie to me and tell me that I would be safer without a seat belt. Sometimes we choose different risks, but don’t lie about it.

Truth #5

“For reasons that either I do not know or will not share, I prefer to listen to blogs and speculation instead of doctors, the CDC and the AAP.” You don’t have any credible scientists or doctors on your side. You simply don’t. Own that, admit it. There is no conspiracy theory against you. You simply are trying to present facts that do not exist and you are putting others at risk. You also should be honest with yourself and realize that 99% of those websites have a product to sell you. And while we’re at it, can you please go refresh your memory on the difference between a theory and a hypothesis? Because all the anti-vaccine sites have provided is a hypothesis. Not a theory.

Truth #6

“For reasons I do not know or cannot articulate, despite the scientific evidence to the contrary, I am afraid of autism.” Admit it, you are. Really, enough with the “Oh, it’s not autism that I’m afraid of…” You are.

Truth #7

“Even though I say I care as a mom, truth is, I simply cannot comprehend what it feels like to have an at-risk or immunocompromised child in the community.” Stop telling us that you really do care about others in the community. You don’t. The newborns, the adults who are going through chemo….you don’t care. You are turning it off in your brain. Otherwise, as a human being, how you could possibly be willing to put a 3-year-old cancer patient at risk with your decisions? If you really understood what it’s like to have a child, for whom the flu/chicken pox/measles would likely be deadly, you wouldn’t make these choices.

Truth #8

“Fact is, I *think* that these diseases are harmless, but I’ve never seen them, so part of me is concerned.” You cannot in good conscience say with 100% certainty that you think that the measles are harmless. You simply are counting on herd immunity (Truth #2) and you think it won’t happen to you. I can tell you this–I have given many [email protected] presentations to older generations like Lions Clubs, Rotary and GFWC. Many of those senior citizens saw polio, had siblings who died from the mumps, had neighbors with measles. Those folks need no convincing and are astounded that anyone would make the choices that you are making. Don’t worry though–at the rate you’re going, you’ll get your chance to see this stuff.

Truth #9

“It’s easier to be defiant and angry and argumentative than to admit I was wrong.” Any reasonable person has got to be asking themselves…if there was a risk to vaccines (higher than risk of disease), wouldn’t we have found it in 25 years? I mean, don’t you get tired of the same old arguments and lack of evidence? If no new evidence comes up…how long are you going to keep up these same talking points? Another 20 or 25 years? “We need to research them more.” No we do not. They have been researched over and over. When I came clean about my life as anti-vaxer, it was hard. I had to come clean to myself, my kids and my husband–that I had put all of us at risk. Admitting, as a mom, that for a period of time you picked a higher risk for your children…that’s really hard to do. I’ve been there. But now I can rest much easier knowing that we are safer and healthier since we are all vaccinated regularly.

As it should be.

 

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Lisa Lightner

Lisa Lightner

Lisa Lightner lives in southeastern Pennsylvania with her husband, two boys and two dogs. When not screaming at her kids in public, she can be found on her special needs parenting blog, ADayInOurShoes.com where she offers advice, support and fun tips for special needs parents.

68 Comments

  1. January 24, 2015 at 8:59 pm —

    Thank you for posting this. Anti-vaxers are afraid to admit these things. In addition, we as pro-vaccine parents tend to be afraid to say these things to them, so I’m glad you have.

    • February 22, 2015 at 11:11 pm —

      I’m sorry, this is the most scientifically bankrupt load of nonsense. Anyone who understands science knows full well there is plenty on both sides and unfortunately the pro-vaxx side has billions in pharma to advertise and hire trolls and nonsensical ranters like this. Vaccine safety facts your pediatrician would tell you if they were honest or maybe they just don’t know:
      1 Vaccine safety studies are only conducted on healthy children yet it will be given to everyone.
      2 Safety studies are done on one vaccine at a time and there’s not a single safety study on the vaccine schedule.
      3 There’s never been a vaccinated vs unvaccinated study to determine if vaccinated children are healthier. We only know it may prevent some diseases however chronic illness has increased during its use.

      Comparing the top 10 least vaccinated countries vs the 10 countries with the lowest infant mortality rate there’s a 70% correlation. I did the same for the top 20 and there’s an 85% correlation. This doesn’t prove a definitive correlation yet however this more than warrants vaccinated vs unvaccinated studies because scientifically this is a trend you can’t ignore. These stats are from 2009 when we were actually 34th in infant mortality instead of 56th as we are today. If this was a pro-vaxx correlation it would be played nonstop on television.

      • April 2, 2015 at 9:39 am —

        1) Generally vaccines are given to those who are already healthy, as complication risks increase on those who are suffering from illness.
        2) No shit. Scientific studies always test one variable at a time. That’s how science works. What’s the point of this again?
        3). Vaccinated children are immune to those diseases. Unvaccinated children can coast by on ‘herb immunity’ and end up being roughly as safe, provided the rest of the community is vaccinated. Congratz, you got away with not having to get vaccinated because everyone else did it for you. Here’s a gold star. /sarcasm

    • February 23, 2015 at 12:25 am —

      Over and over again I have this same argument with people, but the reality is that this is not a battle of Vax vs antivax. There is NO SUCH THING as anti vaxers. That is just media talk. This is really between the vaccine makers and the people suffering from the results of vaccines. U want honesty then let’s be honest. Every parent wants good health for their children and before this whole thing became an issue, parents like me where running to their wellness checkups with their babies to get their shots from the “professionals” we trusted. I did. My first 3 children had their shots. My daughter did have a reaction to a shot and turned blue. She could have died. When I questioned the vaccine the doctor immediately denied without considering It. He didn’t investigate, he didn’t look into it, he didn’t even read the insert. My vaccinated children now suffered the same chronic health issues that is the seeming norm of today,but was not present 2 or 3 generations ago..allergies, asthma, eczema, ear infections..I did the research myself and decided not to vaccinate my other 2 children. Since then my neighbors grandson became autistic after vaccination. My cousin who was advised to get a flu shot, collapsed within hours of the shot and was temporarily paralyzed. She now has permanent neurological damage. The doctors told her the vaccine was not the cause. My father had a pneumonia shot and ended up on a respirator with pneumonia and almost died. Side effects are a fact, they are written on the package inserts and on the cdc websites. It also a fact that side effects are underreported because doctors refuse to even consider that a vaccines may be a cause. People walk into the doctor and sign away their right to hold anyone accountable because the side effects are downplayed and the statistics are false. Then when their children are damaged or die, no one is held accountable. The drug companies have legal protection against lawsuits. Every argument I hear from you groupies ignores the children that are damaged or dead. I can’t ignore them. Every child matters. The illogical fear is yours. You feel so confident that by injecting a disease along with things like formaldehyde, aluminum , and thimerasol , that the one to blame for an outbreak is a healthy child not carrying disease..that is not logical. And stop giving me this crap about how in poor countries they suffer these things..of course there will be disease when u have poor people living in unclean environments without access to clean drinking water. And if you research u will find several vaccines that were pulled for causing damage to children in those poor countries. ultimately what you guys are really believing is not the science but the marketing.I don’t leave the health of my children in the hands of profit seekers.in fact if you go back in time at one time doctors promoted cigarette smoking. So to sit there and act as if medicine is a hundred percent sure and that doctors are not human and capable of making mistakes and research cannot jump to wrong conclusions is ignorance on your part. as a parent simple observation help me come to my decision. And as human seeing others around me that were suffering solidifiedmy conclusion

  2. January 25, 2015 at 12:27 am —

    Silly Lisa.. I am going to screen shot this reply to your silly uninformed rant here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/GMQVII/785845338117178/?comment_id=786184024749976&notif_t=group_comment_reply So that when you delete it because it is so SPot on, others can see that you really SHOULD refrain from these debates on facts in the future. It is NOT your forte, sweetheart. So here goes…
    Truth #1
    “I’m buying into fear, not facts.” – Truth is EVERYONE knows someone with Autism, AutoImmune diseases, Allergies, Asthma, Childhood Cancer, GBV, encephalopathy, etc. All vaccine injuries (symptoms of the diseases, vaccines are supposed to be preventing)

    Truth #2

    “I am un-apologetically relying on you vaccinating your kids so that my family can rely on herd immunity. Oh, and thanks for that.” – We do NOT rely on something vaccinated communities cannot by the very definition of “herd Immunity” provide. Herd Immunity only exists amongst those with LIFE LONG immunity, not temporary, fades in a few months or years, needs a booster shot immunity.

    Truth #3
    “I am not having my freedom of speech rights suppressed. I have a very unpopular opinion because there is no science behind it.” – Which Science would you like .. the CDC whistleblower science or the immunologist that developed stem cell use Science because both of those folks along with about 250 other scientists have a BIG problem with human diploid cells and combination vaccines causing all sorts of terrible trouble in kids’ immune systems and brain function from their corrupted DNA. But, let’s pretend they aren’t scientists. How about Jonas Salk who invented the polio vaccine testifying to Congress in 1976, that the only cause of POLIO today IS the vaccine. Who cares what he says, right?

    Truth #4
    “I know that both options have risks, and I am choosing the side that has a higher risk to my child, my family and others.” According to VAERS, the vaccine reporting system 56 deaths attributed to the Measles vaccine, NO deaths attributed to naturally contracted Measles, which is riskier again?

    Truth #5
    “For reasons that either I do not know or will not share, I prefer to listen to blogs and speculation instead of doctors, the CDC and the AAP.” – WRONGO, all our info comes directly from the CDC and FDA vaccine inserts and govt reporting VAERS

    Truth #7
    “Even though I say I care as a mom, truth is, I simply cannot comprehend what it feels like to have an at-risk or immunocompromised child in the community.” Babies are vaccinated AT BIRTH with a liver infection vaccine and almost ALL of them have jaundice, a symptom of HEPB, that is what is causing the immunocompromised in the First Place because not a single physician knows if a child has a strong enough immune system for ANY vaccine at birth ( if mom isn’t vaccinated while pregnant that is). But they give EVERY BABY a full one size fits all dose regardless of whether it is actually life saving or damaging to them or not!!

    Truth #8
    “Fact is, I *think* that these diseases are harmless, but I’ve never seen them, so part of me is concerned.” They ARE harmless, read child story books, the Brady Bunch episode ‘Is there a Dr. in the House and watch them check off all the childhood illnesses the kids had.. Anybody older than 30 has seen them ALL. We got 8 shots and all the childhood illnesses and have life long immunity, not because we were injected with toxins and virus laded aborted fetal cells. This is the silliest statement you’ve made so far. next..

    Truth #9

    “It’s easier to be defiant and angry and argumentative than to admit I was wrong.” – the risks, deaths, disabilities and permanent brain damage from vaccines are reported EVERY DAY, but you can’t sue or hold manufacturer’s responsible. Time to educate yourself honey before you help them disable, maim and kill 1-50 kids in the next generation. THAT will be on your hands right along with them…

    Now I have a truth and a dare for you? Admit this: If the CDC, FDA and your physician told you tomorrow, that vaccines DO cause serious harm, would you believe them? Or would you hold true to your belief they are saving lives and good for you? If you say YES, you’d believe them then you do not hold that belief, truly… you only believe what you are told to believe.

    ciao

    • January 25, 2015 at 7:40 am —

      Do you have anything new? Because it’s the same old tired, unproven arguments. The CDC whistleblower one, I guess that is one of your newer ones, but it has also been discredited. Actually, I am prepared to eat crow, I have no problems admitting when I was wrong….just like I admitted I was wrong when I spent a year as an anti-vaxxer. I’m confident that won’t happen, but I’d happily admit I was wrong. Look at you being all smug-thank you for calling me silly and uninformed…you have proven my point exactly, about being pious and condescending, all the while it is you who has egg on her face.

    • January 25, 2015 at 8:25 am —

      Heather, if every major medical organization declared that vaccines caused harm, it would be because of supporting evidence. They wouldn’t just make the declaration in a vacuum. In your scenario, the intelligent, informed thing to do would be to listen to the experts AND the evidence they cite.

      • January 25, 2015 at 4:19 pm —

        She’s right though, I don’t hold to my belief that vaccines are good for me TRULY. I only believe it because of evidence! She has shown me the error of my ways! Faith > evidence!

      • January 25, 2015 at 4:23 pm —

        http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-dont-vaccinate-my-child-because-its-my-right-to,37839/

        It’s their right!!

        Gileil, yeah, saying “VAERS attributed deaths to a vaccine” shows a lack of understanding how VAERS works. In case someone doesn’t know: any time a child is ill or something after having a vaccine, that result goes into VAERS for tracking. The database does not make any allegations about causation, merely temporal correlation. If there were a real problem, we’d be able to spot it via the tracking, but all sorts of unrelated things are there too.

    • January 25, 2015 at 8:30 am —

      your entire comment can be boiled down into “I have no idea how vaccines or the immune system work, but I HAVE done a lot of googling to support my uninformed views.”

    • January 25, 2015 at 7:46 pm —

      Lie #1: “Truth is EVERYONE knows someone with Autism, AutoImmune diseases, Allergies, Asthma, Childhood Cancer, GBV, encephalopathy, etc. All vaccine injuries (symptoms of the diseases, vaccines are supposed to be preventing)
      Liar. Autism is not a vaccine injury, and nor are many of those others. While encephalopathy can happen as a result of a vaccine, it can also happen as a result of disease, and is far more likely with the diseases than with vaccines. If that were truly one of your concerns, you’d be a vaccine advocate.

      Lie #2: “Herd Immunity only exists amongst those with LIFE LONG immunity, not temporary, fades in a few months or years, needs a booster shot immunity.”
      Liar. The immunity from measles, from the MMR, is lifelong in >96% of those who develop immunity from the shot (which is 99% of those who get both shots, and 95% of those who get just the one). The immunity from HPV remains high, and higher than that from natural infection, for at least 8 years after the series of 3 shots (probably longer, but the vaccine hasn’t been around that long yet). In 2014, I got my titres tested for rubella immunity as I was pregnant – still immune, and I got the vaccine in 1987. Tetanus immunity lasts about 10 years. Most vaccines require no boosters, once the initial series has been given, because the immunity they provide is long-lasting. And why wouldn’t it be? The specific immune response to vaccine-introduced pathogens is very similar to that induced by a natural infection (although, with fewer antigens, perhaps not as intense). For those diseases where the immunity from vaccines does wane, the same can be said for the immunity from natural infection.
      So if the immunity is lifelong, then herd immunity is in action. That’s why disease like polio and measles are no longer endemic in many countries, and only arrive when people who contracted the disease (unvaccinated, in most cases) bring it in from an overseas trip. Herd immunity isn’t something that exists only among immune people, either; it’s a population-level concept relating to how well a population can resist the spread of a disease. Herd immunity can be strong, if a disease fails to spread, or weak, if it manages to spread. It’s not something that’s either present or absent. Even before vaccines, disease tended to come in waves – after a wave, lots of people would be immune, suppressing the spread of a disease for some months or years, but as more non-immune people are born, the level of herd immunity declines, and eventually there is another wave. Vaccination has successfully suppressed those cycles for diseases like rotavirus and measles and polio.

      Lie #3
      “About 250 other scientists have a BIG problem with human diploid cells and combination vaccines causing all sorts of terrible trouble in kids’ immune systems and brain function from their corrupted DNA.”
      Liar. There are no human diploid cells in any vaccine. If they are never injected, then how can they cause trouble?
      “How about Jonas Salk who invented the polio vaccine testifying to Congress in 1976, that the only cause of POLIO today IS the vaccine. Who cares what he says, right?”
      Liar. Today? Today is in 2015, not 1976. he was referring to the few cases where the oral polio vaccine virus reverted to wild-type virus. The number of cases was very small compared to the number of cases the vaccine effectively prevented from occurring (by several orders of magnitude; I suspect you don’t know what an order of magnitude is – it means powers of ten i.e. 100 is two orders of magnitude more than 1). That the oral vaccine was causing that was justification to change to using the injected vaccine, in which the virus is dead so causes no polio in anyone. It is the vaccine used today. Stop lying that any polio cases are caused by the vaccine today, because that’s simply not possible.

      Lie #4
      “According to VAERS, the vaccine reporting system 56 deaths attributed to the Measles vaccine, NO deaths attributed to naturally contracted Measles, which is riskier again?”
      Liar. According to VAERS, 329 people given the measles vaccine died (from ‘before 1990’ up to Dec 2014; I just did a search myself). However, VAERS does not ‘attribute’ causation to any of the deaths on the database – didn’t you read the page you are supposed to read, and agree that you understand, before continuing to the database? Here, let me quote from it:
      “Please read the following statement on the limits of VAERS data…A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.”
      At the bottom of my table of search results, it also says this: “Note: Submission of a VAERS report does not constitute admission that healthcare personnel or the vaccine caused or contributed to the event.”
      Whereas a man in Swansea died of measles just last year.

      Lie #5
      “WRONGO, all our info comes directly from the CDC and FDA vaccine inserts and govt reporting VAERS”
      Liar. If it did, you’d be well versed in the clear benefits of vaccines, and understand the limitations of VAERS. You must be very selectively using the information on the inserts too.

      Lie #7
      “Babies are vaccinated AT BIRTH with a liver infection vaccine and almost ALL of them have jaundice, a symptom of HEPB”
      Liar. You’re implying the vaccine gives children a liver infection and causes their jaundice. The Hep B vaccine can’t cause any liver-related effects because it’s not injected into the liver, and contains no live pathogens that could infect the liver. The Hep B antigens in the vaccine are produced by yeast cells. I thought you said you got your information from the inserts – didn’t you read that bit?

      Lie #8
      “They ARE harmless, read child story books, the Brady Bunch episode ‘Is there a Dr. in the House and watch them check off all the childhood illnesses the kids had.. Anybody older than 30 has seen them ALL. We got 8 shots and all the childhood illnesses and have life long immunity, not because we were injected with toxins and virus laded aborted fetal cells. This is the silliest statement you’ve made so far. next.”
      Liar. When you were reading children’s books, did you happen to read any by Roald Dahl? Because he dedicated a couple to his daughter, who measles killed at age seven. Harmless, my arse. Right now, in the 2014-2015 Disney measles outbreak, about a quarter of the cases have been hospitalised by their disease. Nobody goes into hospital for a trivial, harmless illness.
      I’m older than 30, and have never seen nor experienced a case of the measles, though I did have the mumps and chickenpox. The latter has left me vulnerable to shingles, which I have already had once – how is that “harmless”?
      Also, there are no ‘aborted fetal cells’ in any vaccine, so it’s impossible to have been injected with them. You’re lying again.
      I’m not even going to bother with the ‘toxins’ claim, because you clearly don’t understand what makes something toxic, i.e. the dose. If you were genuinely concerned with toxins, then you’d not be advocating people get childhood diseases, many of the bacterial ones of which can produce harmful toxins. Tetanotoxin, for example; one of the most hazardous known to man. Meningococcus can produce a toxin which can kill someone, by destroying their peripheral circulation, within 24-48 hours from onset of the disease.

      Lie #9
      “ the risks, deaths, disabilities and permanent brain damage from vaccines are reported EVERY DAY, but you can’t sue or hold manufacturer’s responsible”
      Liar. If the vaccine was manufactured with a fault e.g. contaminated in some way, then yes you can. Again, just because something happens after a vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused it. Many children learn to walk after their vaccines. Some start talking. Some drown. Was the vaccine the cause of any of these events? Of course not. However, some events are known to have links to vaccines; they occur very rarely. If they occur, then rather than suing (which you’re less likely to win, as you have to prove causation), you have the avenue of the NVICP, where the burden of proof is much lower. If it’s a table injury (a known potential adverse effect of a vaccine), then you get paid out, as long as you file soon enough. You have no such recourse if your child is, instead, injured by a vaccine-preventable disease, which is far more likely to happen than an injury from a vaccine, especially if too many people aren’t vaccinating and the diseases return to routine circulation.

      “Admit this: If the CDC, FDA and your physician told you tomorrow, that vaccines DO cause serious harm, would you believe them?”
      If they had compelling enough evidence, sure. Like the narcolepsy linked to a swine flu vaccine formulation some years back. And the slight increase in intussusception that was linked to a rotavirus vaccine formulation. And the cases of polio stemming from the OPV that lead to its replacement with IPV. However, I probably wouldn’t have to worry, because the vaccines concerned would have been withdrawn from use as soon as the harm was known, so my knowledge of it would be moot.

      • January 25, 2015 at 10:37 pm —

        Maddy- Be careful. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but when you are arguing with people you need to have your facts in order. OPV is still used, and it still does cause cases of polio. The places where this happens are countries where the disease is endemic and wid-type polio is still a risk, so the risk of vaccination is still lower than not. But IPV is not routinely used everywhere. IPV does not provide protection against spread of polio by non-symptomatic vectors as well as OPV so OPV is still used and can still cause infection. http://www.polioeradication.org/Dataandmonitoring/Poliothisweek/Circulatingvaccinederivedpoliovirus.aspx

        The worst thing you can do in an argument like this is give up your credibility by quoting bad information. The baby goes out with the bathwater. I doubt you’ll convince Heather H of anything, but any chance you have is lost when you say something that isn’t true.

        • January 27, 2015 at 1:07 am —

          Yeah, I think Maddy was actually implying USA on that one.

          Oh, and the other thing that I wanted to bring up was this argument:
          “Babies are vaccinated AT BIRTH with a liver infection vaccine and almost ALL of them have jaundice, a symptom of HEPB”

          Yup. Many babies get jaundice (not really almost all of them, but a lot of them). That’s true…sort of. The thing is, it really has nothing to do with the Hep B vaccine. Neonatal jaundice can be caused by any number of things, the most common cause of it being very benign things like breast feeding. The juxtaposition of the words in the argument seemed to imply that Hep B was the main cause and I think that’s simply not true.

          It IS true that Jaundice can be a symptom of Hep B. That doesn’t mean that it’s the usual cause of neonatal jaundice. It’s a logic-fault argument…similar to saying “fish can swim. I can swim. Therefore I must be a fish.” Neither of the first two statements in that example are incorrect, but the connection is and I think that’s a problem with the argument presented by Heather here.

          Now, to be fair, a Heb B infection IS a possible danger to a neonate, but (a) that’s if the mom has Hep B and was not treated leading the child to ACQUIRE it during delivery and (b) when this happens, the child is often asymptomatic (no symptoms…ie no jaundice) until later on in life.

          Most of the time the jaundice is physiologic (natural process) from shifts in bilirubin or red blood cells (hemoglobin drops in first week and some of the blood cell break down causes bilirubin to go up transiently). There can be exaggerated physiologic jaundice from liver immaturity, breast feeding, prematurity, or even from certain ethnic genetic variations. Sometimes it’s due to the weight shift of a child. In my experience, jaundice is 99% breast feeding and 1% something pathological.

          I think the implication that Hep B vaccine is causing the jaundice is just not a fair one, nor do I think it is causing problems in the liver. These processes have been documented for decades prior to this vaccine.

          • January 27, 2015 at 6:51 am

            I thought neonatal jaundice had something to do with a baby no longer needing the volume of blood cells it had in the womb, due to loss of placental circulation, thus a greater number of red blood cells are being broken down than usual shortly after birth, while secretion of bilirubin’s into the bile can’t quite keep up. Not a sign of any liver damage, but of the liver not quite coping with the demand, and taking a little longer to clear them.

          • January 27, 2015 at 8:53 am

            Maddy, I just reread my statement and I can see where it looks like hemolytic anemia that I’m describing but that wasn’t my intent…it’s more the natural clearance issues: turnover of red cells during the transition period and the body isn’t quite mature enough to dump it out (bacteria of the digestive tract) as fast as older kids and adults do but it catches up. You’re right. It’s not liver damage in those cases. The body quickly gets its act together in physiologic jaundice.
            Jaundice that appears in first 24 hours though is a different story and should be worked up. I want to be careful not to imply that jaundice is an ignorable issue…just that often times the jaundice of newborns is physiologic.

          • January 27, 2015 at 2:54 pm

            I had jaundice after being born. No Hep B immunisation at birth in my day. Jaundice after birth is fairly common anyway, isn’t it?

          • January 27, 2015 at 3:06 pm

            yup. that was my point. 🙂

        • January 27, 2015 at 6:45 am —

          I think it’s OK to say that OPV problems led to its replacement by IPV, as that claim only applies to places where the replacement has occurred. I did mean to include the US there. Where OPV is still used, it still can be a problem. But reducing the total number of cases by several orders of magnitude is still preferable to not doing so (and takes advantage of the ease of administering the oral vaccine, and its effectiveness at giving immunity where and how it’s most needed in the body). I appreciate the clarification – I strive for accuracy.

        • January 27, 2015 at 6:59 am —

          Oh, also, Jonas Salk was talking about US polio cases when he testified in Congress, which was what I was replying to.

      • January 25, 2015 at 10:50 pm —

        You deserve a standing ovation and a high five!! I work as a nurse and everyday the patients say no thanks for the flu vaccine and I wish I had the time to educate them all. Our bodies are incredible, that’s why we have a liver and kidneys. They work wonderfully to remove all of the “dirty, nasty toxins” that you will never have floating in your body for the rest of your life. I vaccinate my child and I have a boy and his chances of Autism are the same as any other kid, vaccinated or not. I always say would I rather wear a bulletproof vest and possibly get shot in the leg? Or not wear one at all and take my chances. I will take the vest.

      • January 27, 2015 at 3:10 am —

        Yeah..not “today” but #3 is pretty off…this was within 10 yrs… there are others, I don’t have time….
        http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21149823/ns/health-infectious_diseases/t/polio-outbreak-sparked-vaccine-experts-say/#.VMdFKskjIy0

        • January 27, 2015 at 6:56 am —

          When Jonas Salk was ‘testifying in Congress in 1976’, he was referring to US polio cases being due to the vaccine. At the time, most polio cases in countries like Nigeria and India etc were still being caused by wild polio virus.

    • January 25, 2015 at 9:22 pm —

      That’s adorable, Heather. You used the “but the Brady Bunch had Measles and they were FINE” argument. That’s my favorite. Always good for a laugh. I know that when I make life-altering decisions for my family, I always use novels and 60’s and 70’s era sitcoms for information!

      The Disneyland measles outbreak: “Dr. Bob” Sears says measles isn’t that bad, and an antivaccine activist invokes the Brady Bunch fallacy

    • January 25, 2015 at 10:07 pm —

      “According to VAERS, the vaccine reporting system 56 deaths attributed to the Measles vaccine, NO deaths attributed to naturally contracted Measles, which is riskier again?”

      You know that more than 100,000 people die a YEAR from Measles, right? WHO is a much more credible source. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

    • January 27, 2015 at 2:45 am —

      #1. Not a single one of those things is even THEORETICALLY a “vaccine injury”. Evidence or GTFO.
      #2. What the @$%#@ are you talking about? Do you have any idea? Because no one else does.
      #3. The CDC whistleblower? Really? Is that the same CDC whistleblower who emphatically stated that vaccines work? Or do you just pick and choose which of his statements you believe? What am I saying. Of course you do. Cherry-picking is just another lie that you anti-vax morons tell.
      #4. I’m going to say this very slowly. VAERS. is. not. a. database. of. proven. vaccine. damage. Is not. Is not. Is not. Have I said it enough times for it to sink in yet? VAERS is a compendium of anything and everything that people want to put into it. And since there are plenty of whackos like yourself out there who think vaccines cause every bad thing under the sun, surprise! There are people who put those things into VAERS. Seriously, what the @#^& is wrong with you?
      #5. I should have been expecting this. You obviously have as little idea how to read a package insert as you do understanding of what VAERS is. Not too surprising.
      #6. Ooooo, I see you skipped #6. Struck a chord there, did she?
      #7. What is your basis for any of this? Have you studied the immune system? Have you studied anything but your own belly button? You have no idea how any part of the human anatomy works. Except the excretory system, that is, you appear to be a master of that.
      #8. The Brady Bunch? THE BRADY BUNCH?!!?!? You are in all serious giving an episode of THE BRADY BUNCH as proof of something? I can’t even comprehend how stupid that is.
      #9. No, they aren’t. You don’t know anyone who is vaccine injured. You don’t know anyone who knows anyone who is vaccine injured. You are a liar, just as Lisa said. A self-congratulatory, smug, asshole of a liar.

    • January 27, 2015 at 5:48 am —

      “According to VAERS, the vaccine reporting system 56 deaths attributed to the Measles vaccine”

      According to VAERS, James Laider turned into the Incredible Hulk because of the Influenza vaccine. This is because VAERS consists largely of unverified, submitted reports.

    • February 22, 2015 at 11:00 pm —

      Heather, thank you! Funny how some “truths” can actually be a bunch of corporate funded lies……you can’t blame them though. After allowing their precious one’s to be injected with toxic cocktails they sure as hell don’t want to be proven wrong! Sad though, the U.S. has some of the highest rate’s of Vaccinations yet where are they on the list of “Healthy Children” compared to other countries? That’s right, waaaaaay down the bottom and it’s not getting better, in fact it’s an epidemic of sickness caused not by Measles or other “scary” diseases (when did Measles get so life-threatening?) but by the very things “supposedly” protecting them! It’s SO obvious what’s going on when the Media (on the payroll of Pharma and Co) Politicians (because they are all experts on Disease’s, and also on the Payroll) and Celebs (also experts and/or just plain dumb) start jumping up and down chanting the same crazy talk…..maybe its better that half the population just die off anyway. There seems to be way too many stupid people on Earth?

  3. January 25, 2015 at 5:03 am —

    A lot of them are real hypocrites. My cousin’s ex, mother of his kids, is an “anthroposophic midwife” (sad fact: she has a CNM education…) and anti-vaxx*. Except, my mum refused to take the kids camping if they didn’t have a tetanus shot. Vaccines are daaaaaaaaangerous and will kill your kids and it’s a risk you shouldn’t take…
    …unless somebody takes your kids on a free holiday for two weeks.

    *and anti real medicine. Subsequently the younger one has suffered so much from easily treatable diseases that I’m wondering if it isn’t a form of Münchhausen by proxy

  4. January 25, 2015 at 12:44 pm —

    ” How about Jonas Salk who invented the polio vaccine testifying to Congress in 1976, that the only cause of POLIO today IS the vaccine.”
    That’s why we see so much Polio in fully vaccinated populations and almost none in poorly vaccinated populations like in Pakistan and Afghanistan where extremists kill healthccare workers.
    Oh, wait, we don’t, it’s the other way around…

    ” According to VAERS, the vaccine reporting system 56 deaths attributed to the Measles vaccine, NO deaths attributed to naturally contracted Measles, which is riskier again?”
    This doesn’t even make sense.
    1. Time frame?
    2. Before the introduction of the vaccine, in the good old times of “natural immunization” about 450 people died of measles in the USA each. year.
    http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.long
    So the reason you don’t see many people die today is because hardly anybody gets the disease AND because of huge advances in medicine.
    Really, it shouldn’t be hard to understand that you cannot die of a disease you don’t get in the forst place.
    Also, I HAD the measles. I wouldn’t wish them on my worst enemy, let alone my child.

  5. January 26, 2015 at 2:39 am —

    Yes, yes, yes. Thank you for this. God, I wish they’d just own it, too. Right there with you, Lisa!

  6. January 26, 2015 at 3:12 am —

    I knew I should have reported “4 molars breaking through in one weekend, pretty easy and without much fuss” as an effect of MMRV vaccination. It would be funny to see anti-vaxxers dismiss that while taking every other report seriously.
    BTW, herd immunity could and can be observed in unvaccinated populations as well. You didn’t get a steady amount of cases, you’d get cycles: after one, so many people were resistant that you had herd immunity. As new children were born the levels of immunity dropped and when they were below a critical point you’d get the next outbreak (with lots of misery and death)

  7. January 27, 2015 at 5:13 am —

    If you ladies would take the time to do three seconds of googling, you’d find on the CDC website that human diploid cells are used in a number of vaccines:

    Hep A (Vaqta) amorphous aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate, bovine albumin,
    formaldehyde, neomycin, sodium borate, MRC-5 (human diploid) cells November, 2012

    Hep A/Hep B (Twinrix)
    formalin, yeast protein, aluminum phosphate, aluminum hydroxide,
    amino acids, phosphate buffer, polysorbate 20, neomycin sulfate, MRC-5
    human diploid cells
    August, 2012

    MMR (MMR-II)
    Medium 199, Minimum Essential Medium, phosphate, recombinant
    human albumin, neomycin, sorbitol, hydrolyzed gelatin, chick embryo
    cell culture, WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts
    December, 2010

    MMRV (ProQuad)
    sucrose, hydrolyzed gelatin, sorbitol, monosodium L-glutamate, sodium
    phosphate dibasic, human albumin, sodium bicarbonate, potassium
    phosphate monobasic, potassium chloride, potassium phosphate dibasic,
    neomycin, bovine calf serum, chick embryo cell culture, WI-38 human
    diploid lung fibroblasts, MRC-5 cells

    Varicella (Varivax)
    sucrose, phosphate, glutamate, gelatin, monosodium L-glutamate,
    sodium phosphate dibasic, potassium phosphate monobasic, potassium
    chloride, sodium phosphate monobasic, potassium chloride, EDTA,
    residual components of MRC-5 cells including DNA and protein,
    neomycin, fetal bovine serum, human diploid cell cultures (WI-38),
    embryonic guinea pig cell cultures, human embryonic lung cultures
    December, 2012

    And each time you see “Varo,” that is the SV-40 cell line extracted and used in the original polio vaccine. This cell line has been linked to the huge rise in cancer we are seeing today. In case you don’t know what a “miniprep” is, it’s a column extraction method. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8293042

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10472327 – that may say through 1961 but the link above demonstrates it is still being used to this day.

    Allergies – This is NOT from an anti-vax website, it is a “take your info and go home” website: http://www.smartvax.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73:vaccine-induced-allergies

    This article is offensive to those of us who DO have children with vaccine injuries (you know, your 1%) and those of us who know children with vaccine injuries (I’m also in that 1% – what are the odds?).

    Get off your soapbox and use the CDC – your gospel – and do some research before you post next time.

    -Former vaccine scientist

  8. January 29, 2015 at 8:49 pm —

    Here is my take – for what it is worth. There is not point in arguing with these people. No amount of scientific data, statistics, or facts will convince them. They will always find some bullshit answer to support their side of the story. Its utterly useless and a waste of time to quote studies or leave reference pages. So here is my proposal:

    You don’t want to vaccinated your kid – good for you, but there will be some ground rules that you WILL abide by.
    You will sign a waiver at your pediatricians office stating the following:
    1. That if/when your child catches any of these diseases, that could have be prevented by a vaccination, you will then also forgo any and all medical interventions to treat “said” disease.
    2. That if or when your child becomes ill with any of these illnesses, that could have been prevented by a vaccination, and then suffers a serious complication and/or dies that you will be held criminally liable and charged with child endangerment, neglect, and possibly manslaughter.
    3. That if your child becomes ill with any illness, that could have been prevented by a vaccine, an then infects another child who end up with a serious complication and/or dies that you will be held criminally liable and charged with child endangerment and possibly manslaughter.
    4. That your child will be banned from participating in, attending, or visiting any public spaces. Including, but not limited to, amusement parks, zoos, museums, stadiums, arenas, concert halls, the use of public transportation (buses, subways, trains, taxi cabs, etc.), sporting events, malls, parks, or any other public space where a communicable disease is possible to contract or spread so deemed by The CDC and departments of public health.
    5. That your child will be restricted from attending public school.
    I’m not a lawyer, but

    Again – you have every right not to vaccinate your kid. But you have NO right to pose a health risk to ours. There should be consequences for your misinformed decisions. And if/when your kid gets sick – that’s your tough luck. You have no right at that point to ask for medical intervention to save your kid – that was offered to you (in the form of a vaccination) which you denied. Isn’t it so funny how skeptical all these people are of the medical community and big “pharma” until they actually really need it.

  9. January 29, 2015 at 9:35 pm —

    And another point – to the people who don’t believe in vaccinations…one word – SMALLPOX

  10. January 31, 2015 at 7:40 pm —

    For the tl;dr: Your family your decision. Butt out of mine
    I saw this on a friend’s page and was going to post there but I’ll post it here on my own… Because I believe in the “your family your decision”…
    Here are my responses to the “9 things I want anti vaxxers to admit”…
    Truth 1: Fear not facts…
    Facts are most anti vaccine advocates have had a child DIE or be severely injured by a vaccine or know someone’s child who was injured. Billions of dollars in vaccine injury compensation attest to the fact that vaccines are not 100% safe.
    Truth 2: Herd immunity…
    This is so entirely laughable that I want to scream. “Herd immunity” only exists in a NATURAL environment. However lets play along and think medical herd immunity works the same way. We will NEVER have herd immunity as most adults aren’t even fully vaccinated. Add the fact that some people canNOT get a vaccination due to them being allergic or immune-compromised. Those alone (NOT including those who don’t wish to vaccinate) aren’t enough to have “true” herd immunity.
    Truth 3: Science!
    Plenty of doctors and scientists attest to the fact that vaccines are not as safe as pro vaccinators and those who will benefit from vaccines state they are. Did you hear about the CDC whistleblower? What else are they lying about?
    Truth 4: Risks
    Vaccinating and not vaccinating have risks. With vaccinations you have a 100% chance of coming into contact with all/part/dead/alive part of the diseases to which they would be vaccinated for. Not vaccinating also means you would be at risk, but it’s less than 100% because you haven’t been injected with it, and only those vaccines that shed would be the worrisome part of getting it.
    Truth 5: Blogs vs Doctors
    Back to my answer in #3… Doctors, peer reviewed reports, first hand accounts of vaccine injured children, billion dollars into the vaccine injury compensation, etc etc… There are plenty of scientists, doctors, those who created the vaccine, etc that state its not safe, or they don’t vaccinate their kids, etc. The very CDC website with the vaccine package inserts are enough to have people rethink “is this side effect risk really better than getting chicken pox?” (or insert some other vaccine).
    Truth 6: The whole autism crap
    Ugh. Just ugh. It’s not just autism. FFS. And I don’t care about the correlation is not causation spiel they like to spout, if autism shows up after a shot, then yes the shot is to blame. “it could have been in their bodies since birth”… so what is going on is the shot triggered the autism. Now the autism may have never been triggered if they never got vaccinated… however there is no taking a shot back, even with detoxification. No one really knows how it happens, however I AM going to be wary of the vaccine/autism link, especially after the CDC whistleblower.
    Truth 7: Immunocompromised
    Sigh… So because your child is immunocompromised that means I must comply in getting vaccinations that may kill my child because if I don’t I could not care less about your kid? You really want me to answer that? Sorry but if my child has a serious reaction to a shot his next batch of that crap will never be injected into him, and yes I’ll say this, your child I don’t care about. Mine, I do. If my child has a chance of dying because he’s allergic to something, no pity party guilt trip is going to get me to possibly kill my kid. Fuck off. If YOUR child is immunocompromised and going through stuff, it’s your responsibility to protect your child. NOT MINE. Which means, you can hide your child away until their immune system is up to speed.
    Truth 8: Diseases are not as bad as the risks and side effects
    I’ve had chicken pox ten times worse than my brother did. I was out for a long time from school and I’m still here. I LAUGHED when I heard about the chicken pox vaccine. I know many people who’ve had these “horrible diseases that kill KILL KILL” and they are still alive and kicking today. The package inserts are absolutely terrifying (and I’m not talking about the pretty little ones they give you while you sign your rights to sue the vaccine manufacturers away… if they are so safe, why that little ditty on the papers? HMM?).
    Truth 9: Angry and argumentative
    Why should anyone who looks at valid information regarding the risks of the diseases and the risks of the vaccinations and comes to a decision on their own angry and argumentative? I’m not going to blindly believe medical websites that have an obvious medical bias regarding the safety and efficacy of vaccines.
    Hell there aren’t even any studies done comparing vaccinated verses unvaccinated. NONE! The only studies done are one vaccine versus a prior concoction or another vaccine. NO STUDIES DONE vaccinated versus unvaccinated.
    This is a decision that the families and their doctors need to discuss. Whether you vaccinate, or not, or selectively, or delay.
    ****DISCLAIMER*****
    Here’s my disclaimer. Do I come off as anti-vax? Maybe. However here’s something to blow your gasket… I delay vaccinate. Started them at age two months and no more than two shots per visit and several weeks between each set of shots. Helps ease the assault on our little babies immune systems (that aren’t mature until age 2 btw) and can narrow down any side effects to a particular shot/batch. I despise the regular schedule. DESPISE IT… Way too many injected into a little baby. Actually compare how much we adults got versus how many they are putting into our kids today.
    Your kid, your decision. My kid, my decision (‘my’ as in the decision with my family as in my husband and myself and my son’s doctor). I don’t judge you for being on the regular schedule.

    • February 2, 2015 at 3:39 pm —

      That’s just…impressive, Terri. So much wrong, in so few words. It’s like you’ve a mutated form of Super Anti-Vaxxer!

      I think Terri wins for this comment thread. We might as well shut it down.

    • February 2, 2015 at 10:48 pm —

      My colleague and I were just talking the other day about netiquette and how people are quick to attack each other online. It’s kind of amazing to watch two sides of a debate have similar ultimate desires but such vastly different approaches.
      The reality is that this whole thing is complex and a pain in the butt. Unlike chicken-pox where people had “pox parties” to get it over with, even the anti-vaccine folks aren’t rushing to get their kids exposed to measles so maybe if we all started with recognizing that step we might see common humanity here. (ok, sorry, I’ve just watched too much vitriol on FB for this issue and I think it spilled out. I feel better now. 🙂 )
      I’ll be honest, as a healthcare professional, I’m quite pro-vaccine, but even so, it’s true that there ARE risks to it. Just like there are risks to developing these diseases. The irony is that we are ALL skewed by the worst case scenario statistics. That is not isolated to one side. Pro-Vax uses epidemics and immunocompromised kids and Anti-Vax uses rare complications of vaccines, both factual and artifactual. There’s a real tug of war on rights here.

      OK, now that I got that off my chest, let me start by saying that I have patients like Terri who prefer to take it slow. Do I think it’s necessary? No. I see plenty of kids do just fine with the current regimen. Do I think it means more visits where the kid is afraid of the office because of a needle stick? sadly yes. However, it’s still getting the job done in a way that the parent feels comfortable and in the end, I think what Terri is doing is a reasonable compromise as a parent. I favor the schedule as is but for my patients that don’t want to vaccinate, I look for Terri’s style as a middle ground to get them willing to meet me part way and get to a common-ground goal.

      Terri, if you don’t mind, I’d like to respectfully make a few comments on some things you said that I think need to be clarified a little. Please do not view it as attacking you.

      The medical herd immunity concept doesn’t require 100%, but rather 95% or so. Conceptually, the idea is to stop an epidemic from getting a foothold and spreading far and wide. I’ll be honest, I’m not sure why statistically 95% is what they need, but that’s the statistic as I understand it. The issue seems almost silly on an individual level because we tend to think that with so many people what is the problem if I don’t vaccinate but when a number of people think that, then the pockets open up and you toss in a little fact of international travel into the melting pot and it’s a recipe for an outbreak. Well, we’re seeing that happen now. I’m on the east coast and that little Disneyland event managed to make it over here already.

      Your point about inserts…I keep hearing this over and over and the trouble is that the argument is skewed. Hopefully I’ll express this properly. Forgive me if I don’t. The first and foremost thing to remember is that a lot of stuff in medicine today is medicoLEGAL. In other words, what we jokingly call in the biz “CYA” (cover your tush). If someone gets a sniffle or sneeze or a pimple whenever a drug is studied it has to be put in the insert. Yes, I do believe that there are times when problems happen. That is the case with pretty much everything in medicine…well, with everything in life, but the inserts often put all this info in a way where it’s hard to stratify the likelihood of the risk. Can a kid have a seizure from a vaccine? Yes. Is it likely to happen? Probably not. Things like that. The argument could be made in reverse. For example, varivax (chicken pox vaccine). When it first came out I reacted like you to this. “Seriously?” I thought. I remembered having chicken pox and it not being the end of the world…and yet my colleagues told me a story about a person in the community that brought their kid to a chicken pox party and the kid died. That was sobering to hear. So what is the expected counterargument? “That’s not what usually happens”. Correct. But I would propose the following: consider if life had an insert label on this virus like vaccines have to, because of lawsuits and such. It might say that death could occur with this virus and one might think “is it really worth the risk?” — even though it doesn’t happen often. It’s a parallel reversed argument in my mind.
      Don’t get me wrong, Terri. I actually understood your point. I’m adding to the conversation. As you pointed out, this is the reason to talk to your doctor about this stuff.

      Autism: “if autism shows up after a shot, then yes the shot is to blame. ‘it could have been in their bodies since birth’…so what is going on is the shot triggered the autism.”
      Here I don’t agree. Even if the statement of “it could have been in their bodies since birth” is fact or fiction, it still doesn’t mean that the shot “triggered” it. That’s basically back-door blaming the shot for something that was debunked. There were several issues with that vaccine study. (1) his article apparently was rejected multiple times prior due to poor design (2) he had a bias to his study. apparently he was planning an alternate vaccine if I understood correctly [I might be wrong about this but this was my understanding]. It’s important to do these studies properly to not get causality mixed up and misapplied.
      Truth is, damage done. Due to shadow-of-a-doubt thought processes that we all have, the “what if” will forever linger in our culture on this. A thousand studies can prove this study wrong and it will never actually go away because of that shadow. Autism is a tricky thing to diagnose for many people. Some really good clinicians can pick up on it earlier than a year say if a kid doesn’t smile much at people or something, but many don’t pick it up till later. Some, much later. So it’s hard to say that there is absolute cause-effect here when the two happen around similar times. We clearly still don’t know for sure. We have to be wary of selection bias here too. Yes, you can see a case here and there where the link seems obvious but what about the thousands of cases where no such thing occurs? Statistics in medicine are always annoying like this. What may appear benign on the global scale can be downright scary on the individual level. Reconciling the global vs the personal is rarely easy.

      OK, I think my brain is fried. I seem to be rambling. Let me perhaps say one more thing. In your last paragraph you said “Way too many injected into a little baby. Actually compare how much we adults got versus how many they are putting into our kids today.” Think about this: how much do we no longer see? My boss is 20 years older than me. He remembers the meningitis days before HIB. I’m glad I wasn’t practicing back then. Scary freaking times. In many ways we’re more protected than we used to be. On a more quirky note, though, it’s not just vaccines. Look how much more our kids are accomplishing than we did at their ages. I don’t recall learning to read by 4-5 or kid-writing in kindergarten, or having the crazy computer know-how at 7 (then again, crazy computer know-how in my day was Basic Language so I guess that doesn’t count). Our kids get more of EVERYTHING than we did, not just shots. 🙂

      Again, Terri, I apologize if any of this seems attacking at all. I don’t mean it to be. For all that you and I may not necessarily agree on all points, Terri, it’s clear that you have given this thought and that you have talked with your doctor about it and you are vaccinating your kid. Are you paving your own path? Sure, but you’re getting the job done either way. For that, you and I are on the same page 🙂

  11. February 2, 2015 at 3:58 pm —

    Reckon. That bit about herd immunity alone! In developed countries, about a quarter of the population were born before 1957, and are presumed immune to measles because they most likely had the disease themselves. A fair few of the people born after 1957 would have as well, and many of the rest got their vaccines, one or two shots, and most of them will also be immune. I’m guessing Terri doesn’t understand that herd immunity isn’t something that is present or absent, but something that is present but to varying degrees, and is a product of the combined effect of everbody’s individual immunity regardless of how it was gained. When there were no vaccines, herd immunity waxed and waned, as epidemics came and went. Nowadays, the waning is nor necessary, happening mainly when people get complacent about vaccinating.
    And that old claim about there being no studies of vaccinated vs not…one word: KIGGS.
    As for using her children as guinea pigs by putting them through an untested, alternate schedule, well. I guess some people gotta be the mavericks, huh?

    • February 3, 2015 at 2:54 am —

      I think “Terri doesn’t understand” sums it up nicely.
      Without vaccines you got herd immunity. For a while. Until there were enogh children who hadn’t contracted the disease yet and who worked just like those anti-vax pockets do today: Immunity sinks under a certain treshold, there’s an outbreak. Those who survive are now immune, herd immunity goes up, the disease has no chance until there’s enough new children.

      The argument of “I know many people who survived those diseases” is the most ridicculous. Of course there are. Those diseases are not 100% fatal. Only that of course you don’t know a 36 year old person who died of measles as a child, but you know me who survived measles as a child.

  12. February 3, 2015 at 9:09 am —

    So what you’re saying is, it’s totally cool if people want to buy a bunch of guns and shoot kids with them but parents have to vaccinate their kids. I wonder which thing kills more kids? I bet it’s not the diseases.

    • February 3, 2015 at 12:35 pm —

      Non sequitur.
      Also, do you know WHY measles don’t kill thousands of children anymore? Yep, intensive medical care and, ta-daaa, vaccines.

    • February 4, 2015 at 4:17 pm —

      Who said that?

  13. February 4, 2015 at 4:17 pm —

    http://www.salon.com/2015/02/04/glen_beck_compares_anti_vaxxers_with_galileo_nobody_that_hasnt_done_their_homework_says_no_to_vaccines/

    “SCIENCE ISN’T ENOUGH, SCIENCE SAID GALILEO WAS WRONG, BUT HE TOOK A STAND!”

    What is this I don’t even.

    • February 4, 2015 at 5:22 pm —

      Ah, you know, the laughed at Galileo, they laughed at Einstein, but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown…

  14. February 22, 2015 at 9:35 pm —

    1) I’m not afraid. We’ve made an educated choice.
    2) I’m not relying on others to vaccinate their children. I’m in charge of my children’s health, not you. If they come down with something it is my responsibility to keep them home until they are better, not yours.
    3)I am not selfish. There are scientific fast that vaccines injure different people, including children. The government pays the family for their vaccine injured child.
    4)I’m not choosing the higher risk, I’m choosing to boost our immune system in a more nature way.
    5)I’ve gotten a lot of my information from doctors, the cdc, as well as the aap.
    6)I am not afraid of autism nor do I believe that vaccines cause autism.
    7)I can comprehend this. I know several people who have autoimmune diseases. They come around my family all the time. They also know that we don’t vaccinate. They take care of their health and we take care of our health.
    8)I’ve seen a few of them and have had a few myself. I survived and so did the others.
    9)There is no right or wrong answer here. I say that because vaccines are not a one size fits all. Vaccines do harm people, people are allergic to vaccines and others do become sick from vaccines.

    This isn’t about vaccines anymore, this is about the freedom of choice. No matter how you feel about vaccines, if vaccines become mandatory, the government will not stop there. They will start making other medical procedures mandatory no matter what the side effects are. No medical procedure is a one size fits all and that includes vaccines.

    • February 23, 2015 at 2:33 pm —

      “2) I’m not relying on others to vaccinate their children. I’m in charge of my children’s health, not you. If they come down with something it is my responsibility to keep them home until they are better, not yours.”
      -Your child’s risk of contracting a disease is still much lower when those around you vaccinate
      -So you’re totally OK and happy with your child being sick with something that could easily have been prevented by a vaccine?

      “4)I’m not choosing the higher risk, I’m choosing to boost our immune system in a more nature way.”
      Nature’s way is horrible premature death. This doesn’t even make sense. What’s that supposed to mean?
      “I can comprehend this. I know several people who have autoimmune diseases. They come around my family all the time. They also know that we don’t vaccinate. They take care of their health and we take care of our health.”
      An autoimmune disease can be many things. Most of them do not mean you’re either unable to get vaccinated nor at a greater risk of getting the disease. The thing you’re looking for is immune compromised.
      If you know so little about the whole suject, maybe you should not boast with your knowledge?
      People with autoimmune disease probably don’t have to worry because they’re actually vaccinated. Yours truely, a person with an autoimmune disease.

    • February 24, 2015 at 5:22 pm —

      3) can you please cite your sources for this scientific data? (from reputable, peer reviewed studies, please).

      7) you said “I know several people who have autoimmune diseases. They come around my family all the time. They also know that we don’t vaccinate. They take care of their health and we take care of our health.”

      But. . .”autoimmune disease” and “immunocompromised” aren’t the same thing–one is a misdirected immune system (which you know since you know several people with autoimmune diseases), and the other is a weakened immune system. Also, the way people who are immunocompromised “take care of their health” is by NOT being around people who can potentially carry a virus that will kill them. . .ie, those who are unvaccinated.

  15. February 22, 2015 at 9:56 pm —

    This article is so completely wrong. And I mean not just factually wrong, but morally wrong. Lets put it this way…have you ever, in your entire life as an American citizen, seen so much concentrated hatred directed towards a group with an dissenting opinion? Have you ever seen the media completely shut out the other side of an argument? Have you ever seen so many good, educated, rational, passionate individuals be painted in such an ugly manner? No. You haven’t. This is an organized attempt to control public opinion by controlling media and implementing censorship. This is the fostering of “hate crimes” against your neighbor, your family members, your coworkers. And all….seemingly at the surface…because about 100 kids in Disneyland got measles. Doesn’t this strike you as crazily out of balance? It should. It should make you very concerned. What is our government afraid will happen? All we want is safety – Americans are the sickest and most vaccinated population in the world. Dr Wakefield was never debunked, he was validated by 95 studies proving vaccines are causing autism (and worse). Can you not move to a more moderate stance and open your eyes to the truth? Why would anyone have to fear our attempt to make vaccines safer. You should be cheering us on…because we will make them safer for all Americans. Currently, they are not – because doctors are not trained to recognize vaccine injury. Even after you start to develop “MS” right after a shot. (Its not MS). Right after a child regresses into autism after a shot, its a coincidence (No, its not). We are dying here, Americans. And now is the time to put your belief in freedom to the sticking point and ALLOW antivaxxers the floor to discuss and have an open forum of congressional hearings on the LACK of safety of vaccines. Right now, you can put a stop to the witch hunts.. Change your position. Before YOU do anymore damage. (MMR is a live vaccine that begins to shed virus for up to 30 days after the shot – the live virus infects others around the child and that is how very small outbreaks like Disneyland occur.).

    • February 23, 2015 at 2:52 pm —

      You’re completely mistaken. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
      “Andrew Jeremy Wakefield (born c. 1957) is a British former surgeon and medical researcher, known for his fraudulent 1998 research paper in support of the now-discredited claim that there is a link between the administration of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine, and the appearance of autism and bowel disease.[1][2][3][4][5]”

      “After the publication of the paper, other researchers were unable to reproduce Wakefield’s findings or confirm his hypothesis of an association between the MMR vaccine and autism,[6] or autism and gastrointestinal disease.[7]”

      So no, far from 95 studies proving vaccines are causing autism, there were no studies confirming his findings.

      I am all for improving vaccines, but you have to try to improve actual problems with them, and not pretend problems.

    • February 24, 2015 at 5:28 pm —

      “And now is the time to put your belief in freedom to the sticking point and ALLOW antivaxxers the floor to discuss and have an open forum of congressional hearings on the LACK of safety of vaccines.” The problem with doing this is that the anti-vax soapbox is not supported by anywhere near the data necessary to back those vehement claims. Even IF what you’re saying is true and the anti-vax position wasn’t being heard far and wide thanks to the celebrity proponants of it, then the lack of interest in hearing anti-vax testimony would be because there just isn’t evidence to back that claim.

  16. February 22, 2015 at 11:11 pm —

    Yvonne Aileen You are on a witch hunt. You are buying into exactly what Big Pharma wants you to buy into and you are making parents who choose not to vaccinate according to the schedule mandated out to be the villains, which is exactly what Big Pharma wants you to do. We are not anti-vaxxers. And if vaccines were safe, no thinking parent would deny their child. They are not safe. HepB has aluminum in it, which is a toxin. Do you really want to give HepB to your newborn baby when it’s meant to prevent sexually transmitted disease? That’s on their mandated schedule. Many flu shots still have thimerosol in them–that’s mercury! Watch the movie I’m linking to below. It’s only available for free until March 6. And if you still want to allow pharmaceutical companies to pump toxins into your child after watching this, well … you won’t. I’m sure you’re a good parent and you mean well, just as I do when I say there is no way I will let my child be further damaged by vaccines. And by the way, get ready to hold your own arm out. They’re coming after adults next. Google the National Adult Immunization Program. You have 2-4 weeks to comment on whether you’re willing to give away your right to decide whether and when and what you want to inject toxins into YOUR body. http://boughtmovie.net/free-viewing/

    • February 23, 2015 at 2:57 pm —

      Everything is a toxin at high quantities. You can die from drinking too much water. The fact of the matter is, vaccines are safe, they’re cheaper than the alternatives, which means that companies only produce them because there’s such high demand. The government really doesn’t have an ulterior motive here. They want to prevent disease, because back when these diseases were everywhere, people thought they were awful.
      I’m totally ok with being told when and what to get vaccinated for. It will keep everyone safer from diseases which kill.

      https://roalddahl.com/roald-dahl/timeline/1960s/november-1962

    • February 24, 2015 at 5:36 pm —

      “Do you really want to give HepB to your newborn baby when it’s meant to prevent sexually transmitted disease? ” Oh for pete’s sake. HepB can be transmitted by any bodily fluid–positive mom’s can give it to their infants during birth, a toothbrush can pass it, etc. Given that between 800,000 and 1.4 million people in the US have HepB at any given time, it makes sense to be careful . . .it’s not about it being a sexually transmitted disease (http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/B/bFAQ.htm#statistics).

      Besides, infants get the vaccination because Hep B can cause chronic disease and long term liver problems in that population specifically. (http://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/hepatitis-a-and-b-vaccines?page=2).

  17. February 23, 2015 at 12:48 am —

    Watch http://www.boughtmovie.net
    Let everyone make their own decisions.

  18. February 23, 2015 at 2:58 am —

    What’s “crazy” coming from a parent of autism…I’m on the fence about EVERYTHING!? But when I compare the SCIENCE and the FACTS, opting out of a vaccines make more sense. Good luck with all of this trolling though!?!!!

    • February 23, 2015 at 2:35 pm —

      You are not a parent of “autism”. Maybe you’re a parent of a child with ASD and you should pay a little bit respect to them, because they are a person, not a diagnosis.

    • February 25, 2015 at 4:11 pm —

      Funny, I am also a parent of an autistic child, and when *I* compared the science and the facts, opting out of vaccines because of irrational fears fueled by a doctor on the take came out as being seriously irresponsible.

  19. February 23, 2015 at 9:45 am —

    Putting this here. I also putting it the other GP post on Anti-Vaccination — it’s a Hank Green Vlog on the Science of Anti-Vaccination. (If you know Hank Green, you know he’s in favor of vaccination, but here he’s looking at why parents might be led into bad science and bad decisions by their own research.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzxr9FeZf1g

  20. February 23, 2015 at 3:12 pm —

    BTW, Germany is contemplating mandatory measles vaccination. We’re having a huge outbreak right now and a child has died.
    So, if you think that blog posts are “witch hunts” and lead to “hate crimes” while children die you really need to sit down and learn what words mean.

    • February 24, 2015 at 7:28 pm —

      1) WTF is vaccine-induced SIDS? The link is just a link to the SIDS page, with no allegation that vaccines play any part in SIDS. In addition, none of the diseases listed were “manufactured”, and the vaccines came about because they can be very serious. My baby sister had a really bad case of chicken pox, and if she’d caught it a year earlier, it might’ve killed her. Also, HPV??? The MOST COMMON STD which can cause cervical cancer? Wow.

      2) I am happy to go for my boosters, as are most of us, and we admit vaccines don’t last forever.

      3) No true Scotsman fallacy.

      4) Sure it’s partly selfish, but my self-interest and my interest in the general good coincidentally lead me to the same actions!

      5) From the first paragraph of your link:
      ” Based on an animal model, the study conducted by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and published November 25, 2013, in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, shows that acellular pertussis vaccines licensed by the FDA are effective in preventing the disease among those vaccinated, but suggests that they may not prevent infection from the bacteria that causes whooping cough in those vaccinated or its spread to other people, including those who may not be vaccinated.”
      So the vaccine works for the people vaccinated, but does not provide herd immunity for this specific disease. Maybe either don’t lie, or read what you’re linking?

      6) You link to something about pertussis, which as discussed by your previous link, can be carried despite vaccination. That doesn’t prove the claim you make, that they carry all the same germs.

      7) I agree with the bolded statement, but the idea that genetically modified foods have anything to do with getting sick is ludicrous and completely unsupported by any facts. You don’t even try to pretend you have any to support the idea!

      8) Several other people have mentioned that there seems to be conflation of autoimmune disorders with immuno-compromised individuals. The fact that very few people have these disorders is not enough reason to deny them herd immunity, barring other compelling reasons, which we haven’t seen yet. You’ve still got 12 points, so maybe?

      9, 10) True, because it doesn’t pass ethical standards. Vaccines are so safe and effective that denying their application, especially to a group of people unaware of this fact, would be exceedingly unethical. We admit this all the time.

      11) They specifically state that anyone exposed to a disease should stay away. This is because that would cause a risk to immuno-compromised patients. Sure, live virus vaccines would be dangerous for such patients. That’s why they don’t get them! They are effective and valuable for everyone else though!

      12) Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. See the story of the child who had a seizure just BEFORE vaccination. If that seizure comes just after, you point to it as evidence for the danger of vaccines. Still, studies have not found harms from vaccines that approach the harms of the diseases they prevent.

      13) True, and not related to vaccines.

      14) What fallacy is that? I would rather my child have autism than be dead, that’s a preference. It is, however, irrelevant to this discussion, as there has never been a link between vaccines and autism.

      15) Not sure that I can admit that, I’d need evidence, but I’m open to the possibility that it is true.

      16) But what portion of children are completely vaccinated? A kid having 0 vaccinations or 1 vaccination is barely different. http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/percent-who-are-immunized/ says that 75% of kids are completely vaccinated. So we’re chasing a quarter of the conversation. This is a strawman/red herring.

      17) Any evidence for this? Why all the arguments about autism and such if you’re just worried about the Hep B vaccine? I’m skeptical of this one.

      18) And how many people do they save every year? Regardless, hospital staff are not typically vaccine researchers. But if you don’t trust your doctor for anything, don’t go when you’re sick. Then they won’t kill you. Weird how better medicine has lead to such longer life expectancy though… Nah, probably just coincidence.

      19) Might be true, but irrelevant to safety of vaccines.

      20) Yes, and treating illness is far more profitable than dispensing a vaccine. That forbes article about the 400,000 deaths a year said that the cost of treating an infection at a surgical site was $39,000. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/awardees/vaccine-management/price-list/ Top costs for a vaccine are around $120, many are $10-20. Do the math.

  21. February 25, 2015 at 2:29 am —

    Well, I’m wondering how the parents of the boy who died are feeling now about the measles vaccine. Last christmas they celebrated with a healthy, but unvaccinated toddler. Easter they will visit his grave.

  22. February 25, 2015 at 2:38 am —

    Also: can we just bury the bullshit that Hep B is a sexually transmitted disease? Sure, it is also transmitted via sex, but just like HIV, it happily makes use of all the possibilities. So babies can get it from their mothers, children can get it from other children through a nasty bite. Yes, your toddler is bitten by another toddler in a fight over a toy. Congratulations, they have Hep B now. And let’s not mention toilets and the extreme aversion small children have to each others urine and shit. Not.

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